[FEL-L] Re: [EPOU] What the anti-cat people want for your life

[Amy]

Ok, I reckon this only went to half the lists you originally posted but 
what?  NO, I don't agree in any way with ANYTHING that does that. Big 
cats (small cats, primates, reptiles, pb's, rotts) do not deserve 
legislative extinction nor does any keeper of them. To me it seems as if 
we aren't fighting for any one animal, any species or subspecies- we're 
fighting for the right to own.
Big cats go along with primates- different reason, somewhat the same- 
public safety. That's been proven less 'dangerous' than any daily living 
activities. I would think cohesion of OWNERS would be a more viable 
avenue no matter the species. I read so many lists and emails of those 
'protecting' their own, ownership rights that it is mind boggling- they 
don't see WHAT they are fighting and how other's rights affect their 
own. There are splintered groups- 'societies', 'conservation ', 
'rescue', 'welfare', 'breeders' and even private owners playing at 
looking out for ownership rights of all. There are basically NO 
group/org that I have seen that looks out for all ownership rights 
irregardless of animal or owner other than state specific. Nationally we 
seem to have a huge deficit. HSUS, PETA, API and the like have taken it 
all. Any animal 'owning' seems to be politically incorrect or something. 
Many of us 'owners' seem to be either complacent (accepting and dealing 
with laws how they are or WILL be) or just in denial. Or falling one 
step at a time for what they deem as acceptable- all the same. SAME OUTCOME.
Fundraising seems to be non- attainable compared to hsus. But NC did 
something with their people and money for a lobbyist.
Hold accountable any national that claims the same.
Some do it by numbers, some by personal contact, some by calls, letters. 
Whatever it takes and if you have enough states on the 'same page'- YES, 
it could be turned back. Yea, big cats are most likely the biggest 
target, right alongside everything else in steps. THEY told it, showed 
it and put it in black and white. I'll fight with everything I've got, 
even for ownership of those carnivorous cats = ) If you only look at 
bloodlines you've lost well over half the battle- they want none- they 
aren't indigenous to the US.
Better to live with than without- any animal.
End of rant

Amy

Tim Stoffel wrote:

> Folks, this is bad. Really bad.
>
> I have stumbled by accident on the plans that the AR fanatics and
> the sanctuary folks are putting together to attack us for next year.
> Basically, I suspect that the legislation they want to introduce next
> year will prevent breeding of most big cats based on bloodlines. This is
> a very sneaky end-around around the inability to pass ban laws. We are
> going to have to get together in high gear to stop these radicals. They
> are after our cats, and unless we find a way to derail them, we are
> going to have a very hard time stopping these folks.
> I have the idea that this legislation will put most non-AZA zoos out
> of business by preventing them from having the animals that have the
> biggest attraction to the public.
> Above all, we need to watch every motion of these folks like a hawk
> and be ready to jump on their every weakness.
>
> THIS IS WAR!!!!!!
>
> Tim Stoffel
>
> --
>
> The first letter is in response to the letter I posted as a suggestion
> to stop the BC ban. This person is lurking on our lists and took the
> time to respond.
>
> Sir, you are terribly mistaken when you say banning private ownership is
> a BAD thing!
>
> These animals are very cute when they are babies and bought by private
> individuals who do not realize that THEY DO NOT MAKE GOOD PETS. After
> maturity, or even sooner, the animals cannot be controlled unless you
> are an experienced trainer. Each one of the animals may eat in excess of
> 100,000 pounds of meat in their lifetime. They are not to be treated by
> regular vets but exotic vets, which will charge a minimum of $300.00
> just to come to your home, not to treat the animal. A basic 40 foot x
> 40 foot 9 gauge enclosure will run between $13,000.00 and $17,000.00 on
> average and this does not include shelter, enrichments, toys, etc.
> After 9 to 10 months, not such a good idea to have them as a pet after
> all. Now they look for a home for the cat.
>
> The majority of all big cat sanctuaries in the United States are 501-c-3
> non-profit organizations who rely solely on donations from the public to
> not only support their own cats previously rescued, but be able to build
> more enclosures and rescue more big cats. If they cannot find a home
> for the big cat, they are immediately euthanized, only because they are
> homeless! Exhibitors travel with the animals for photo-ops, and in case
> you are not aware of this fact, once the cubs are too large to use in
> photos, if they cannot be placed in the few viable big cat sanctuaries
> in the United States, the cats are euthanized so the owner doesn’t have
> to continue to support an animal he specifically acquired for the sole
> purpose of exploiting the cat and making money!
>
> ONLY AZA Zoos should be actively breeding, as they are the only one’s
> who keep very specific DNA and RNA bloodline records to make sure the
> bloodlines do not cross to be able to keep a pure blooded animal in
> existence as long as possible. Since the end of World War 2, 3
> sub-species of Tigers have been completely wiped out due to poaching and
> encroachment of their territories. These AZA Zoos employ highly trained
> individuals who are trying to save an entire species. Yes, you can
> breed if you are a private owner, but you will only get a “Mutt” Tiger.
> These are all animals who needlessly suffer from abuse, neglect,
> photo-ops, severe birth defects from inbreeding, etc. The more “Mutt”
> tigers that are bred, the closer the genetic pool swirls and eventually
> these animals will all suffer from severe birth defects, if they survive
> at all!
>
> None of this proposed legislation is to protect the public from the big
> cats, but to protect the big cats from the sheer STUPIDITY of the
> public. APHIS is re-evaluating it’s manual as we speak and there are
> many of us who hope to present our case in front of the United States
> Senate next year to ban all private ownership unless you are a zoo or a
> sanctuary.
>
> Extinction is forever and unfortunately individuals like yourself are
> rapidly helping this endeavor of extinction along. Do your research
> before you go online and spread sheer and utter lies to an unsuspecting,
> uninformed public. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!
>
> Valori T. Russell
>
> Head Caretaker
>
> Crown Ridge Tiger Sanctuary
>
> vrussell at crown-ridge.com <mailto:vrussell%40crown-ridge.com>
>
> 573-883-9909
>
> 573-535-1630
>
> Here is the reply I sent Mr. Russell:
>
> On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 13:54 -0500, Valori Russell wrote:
> > Sir, you are terribly mistaken when you say banning private ownership
> > is a BAD thing!
>
> Ah! I love getting letters like this!
>
> > These animals are very cute when they are babies and bought by private
> > individuals who do not realize that THEY DO NOT MAKE GOOD PETS.
>
> On what ground do you claim that big cats do not make good pets? I bet
> you really enjoy the companionship of the cats you work with. One who
> works with these animals in a loving, caring way cannot help but bond
> with them. And this bond is a deep, abiding bond that has nothing to do
> with the fact that the animal involved is a superpredator. So for all
> intents and purposes, if you work with these animals, they are your
> pets.
>
> > After maturity, or even sooner, the animals cannot be controlled
> > unless you are an experienced trainer.
>
> This assumes, of course, you want to be in the enclosure with the cat.
> There is no reason one cannot very successfully raise these animals
> without the need to go in with them. I do not go in with the cats in my
> care. They can be loved safely and successfully through the fence.
>
> > Each one of the animals may eat in excess of 100,000 pounds of meat
> > in their lifetime.
>
> And your point is?
>
> Assuming an average lifespan of 18 years, and feeding seven days a week,
> most big cats would become obese on this much food!
>
> > They are not to be treated by regular vets but exotic vets, which
> > will charge a minimum of $300.00 just to come to your home, not to
> > treat the animal.
>
> And your point is?
>
> Our vets charge more than this.
>
> > A basic 40 foot x 40 foot 9 gauge enclosure will run between
> > $13,000.00 and $17,000.00 on average and this does not include
> > shelter, enrichments, toys, etc.
>
> And your point is?
>
> A well designed enclosure and its accessories is not cheap, and for good
> reason. (I find your estimate low.) Yet, people spend more than what a
> good enclosure costs on an SUV every day.
>
> > After 9 to 10 months, not such a good idea to have them as a pet
> > after all. Now they look for a home for the cat.
>
> The unprepared owner might. Or, they learn really fast. The responsible
> owners are ready for this stage.
>
> > The majority of all big cat sanctuaries in the United States are
> > 501-c-3 non-profit organizations who rely solely on donations from the
> > public to not only support their own cats previously rescued, but be
> > able to build more enclosures and rescue more big cats.
>
> If these sanctuaries are able to care for all these cats, why can't
> other people be able to care for them? The husbandry requirements of big
> cats are not complex by the standard of many other animals. I would go
> as far as saying a horse is harder to care for than a big cat.
>
> Don't forget a lot of facilities that hold big cats for reasons other
> than rescue are also 501(c)(3) and operate on donations.
>
> A lot of the reasons that the placement of cats has increased is that
> big cat owners are being legislated to death. A report issued by the
> USDA a few years back indicated the big cat numbers in the US were
> basically steady. If this is the case, why are the number of these
> animals ending up in sanctuaries increasing? I am having to deal now
> with two people with cats who are having to place their cats because
> they were legislated out of existence. That is not fair to the owner nor
> the cat.
>
> According to Vernon Weir of the ASA, the vast majority of cats coming
> into the ASA are from USDA licensed facilities, not private owners.
>
> > If they cannot find a home for the big cat, they are immediately
> > euthanized, only because they are homeless!
>
> Do you have hard statistics on this? I hear of very few cases of this.
>
> > Exhibitors travel with the animals for photo-ops, and in case you are
> > not aware of this fact, once the cubs are too large to use in photos,
> > if they cannot be placed in the few viable big cat sanctuaries in the
> > United States, the cats are euthanized so the owner doesn’t have to
> > continue to support an animal he specifically acquired for the sole
> > purpose of exploiting the cat and making money!
>
> What is your definition of 'viable'?
>
> I think you will find there are more than a 'few viable sanctuaries' in
> the US.
>
> A viable sanctuary, in my opinion, should be breeding their worthy
> animals in a conservation breeding program that is managed by a
> voluntary committee to help ensure the survival of the species.
>
> Cubs are produced in too large a number for many conservation breeding
> programs. Let the cubs be evaluated, and only the fittest allowed to
> carry on their genes. The rest can be given a short and happy lifetime,
> and then euthanized. I don't personally like this, but it is population
> management to replace that which occurs in nature (for instance, only 1
> in 8 lion cubs makes it to adulthood in the wild. The mortality rate
> drops sharply in adulthood.) European zoos have been culling cubs for
> many years.
>
> That said, I know many cats who do photo shoots when young go on to be
> good adult cats.
>
> > ONLY AZA Zoos should be actively breeding, as they are the only one’s
> > who keep very specific DNA and RNA bloodline records to make sure the
> > bloodlines do not cross to be able to keep a pure blooded animal in
> > existence as long as possible.
>
> What uniquely qualifies the AZA above any other management organization?
> The fact that the animal rights people have been writing illegal
> exemptions for them into their ban laws?
>
> And, is there any advantage to pure-bloodedness? For the most part, a
> tiger is a tiger. And a living mutt tiger is better than a dead or
> extinct pure-blooded tiger.
>
> Also, the number of tigers of each subspecies in AZA zoos is so low that
> they will not be able to maintain a viable gene pool for more than a few
> generations. And, their involuntary SSP breeding program has actually
> killed cats in transport.
>
> > Since the end of World War 2, 3 sub-species of Tigers have been
> > completely wiped out due to poaching and encroachment of their
> > territories.
>
> Will you agree with me then, that the human encroachment problem is
> unsolvable? The only viable alternative is captive husbandry.
>
> > These AZA Zoos employ highly trained individuals who are trying to
> > save an entire species.
>
> In my opinion, they are too highly trained. Many AZA zoos I have been in
> have their animal care and management programs hidebound by science.
> These animals are actually getting worse care than their brethern in
> smaller zoos and in private hands.
>
> > Yes, you can breed if you are a private owner, but you will only get
> > a “Mutt” Tiger. These are all animals who needlessly suffer from
> > abuse, neglect, photo-ops, severe birth defects from inbreeding, etc.
>
> Inbreeding is a bad thing. But, if there are plenty of tigers around to
> breed with, inbreeding ceases to be a problem.
>
> Also, has it occurred to you that most private cat owners take good care
> of their animals? If there really are 10-20,000 cats in private hands,
> why is it you only hear about a few of them getting into trouble. If you
> love an animal, you are inclined to take good care of it. If this animal
> helps you get your livelihood, you are likely to see to it that it is
> well cared for, so the money will keep coming in. And is there any rule
> which states that a person who makes money with an animal cannot have a
> good bond with said animal, and therefore enrich each others' lives?
>
> > The more “Mutt” tigers that are bred, the closer the genetic pool
> > swirls and eventually these animals will all suffer from severe birth
> > defects, if they survive at all!
>
> With enough cats, the opposite occurs. It is only when you restrict the
> number of animals in the gene pool (by, for instance banning laws, or
> 'science' falsely so called) that you run into trouble.
>
> And again, what is wrong with a mutt tiger, especially in captivity?
>
> > None of this proposed legislation is to protect the public from the
> > big cats, but to protect the big cats from the sheer STUPIDITY of the
> > public. APHIS is re-evaluating it’s manual as we speak and there are
> > many of us who hope to present our case in front of the United States
> > Senate next year to ban all private ownership unless you are a zoo or
> > a sanctuary.
>
> The APHIS manual will have no effect on private owners unless they are
> APHIS licensed. And, the policy manual is just that: policy. APHIS has
> already demonstrated in its policy that they bow to special interests
> (like veterinarians, who make $$$ off owners complying with some of
> their silly policies). I might even contribute to the policy manual, who
> knows?
>
> At this time, I have the right to own a big cat, or any other animal I
> choose to own. This is fundamental right, and goes back to the dawn of
> civilization. You, too have the right to own a big cat....or not to own
> a big cat. Why is it that a small group of cat owners is doing their
> darndest to TAKE AWAY MY RIGHT TO OWN A BIG CAT WHILE PROTECTING THEIRS?
> Am I proposing anything to take away your rights? No. If you really
> believe in introducing this legislation, I urge you to immediately
> euthanize all the big cats in your possession to show that you walk your
> talk.
>
> Any legislation entered at the Federal level (or at the state level in
> most states) will be vigorously opposed by the rapidly growing body of
> animal owners that love their freedom and love their animals. The AR
> folks are in for a big fall. It is happening already as more and more
> public official, law enforcement officers, and average citizens see how
> evil they are. They will drag down with them the legislators they have
> bought out to support their cause.
>
> People will not easily give up their animals. Any ban legislation will
> only create a black market. You don't want this and I don't want this.
> But, if the black market is the only way that big cats are able to
> survive, all the best to them.
>
> > Extinction is forever and unfortunately individuals like yourself are
> > rapidly helping this endeavor of extinction along. Do your research
> > before you go online and spread sheer and utter lies to an
> > unsuspecting, uninformed public. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!
>
> I have done my research. It doesn't look like you have done yours. It is
> sanctuary owners more than any other group (besides the AR folks) who
> are misinforming the public!!
>
> And, thank you for revealing yourself to the many responsible animal
> keepers who are on the various cat lists. Its nice to know who are
> enemies are!
>
> Respectfully,
> Tim Stoffel
>
> And, here is the response I got back from him today:
>
> We are attempting to save all big cats through pure blood lines. While
> there will be "mutt" tigers in existence for many years to come,
> eventually the genetic pool will become so clouded all of the big cats
> born will have severe genetic defects if they are genetically intact
> enough to be born at all. I will no longer argue this point with
> someone who is so obviously closed minded and does not see the entire
> picture. Several Directors, including myself, working in/with
> sanctuaries working unwanted, neglected, and abused big cats will
> present our case in from of the US Senate next year. This is where
> legislation will affect the ultimate outcome of the plight of the big
> cats and not through email with individuals like yourself. You have
> your opinions and I will have mine. Fortunately mine are shared by more
> than 134 Directors of Zoos and Sanctuaries. Our correspondence will end
> here.
>
> BE FOREWARNED!!
>
> For the lions,
> Tim Stoffel
>
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