[FEL-L] De-claw debate

Fri Aug 11 18:26:05 CDT 2006

Since you have asked “Who is Mr. Gruhn?” I suggest you check my web site
www.gruhn.com <http://www.gruhn.com/>     The site is devoted to my vintage
musical instrument business, but prior to opening the music business I did
graduate work in Zoology at Duke and further graduate work in animal
behavior psychology at the University of Tennessee.  My primary interest in
Zoology was herpetology.  I do not claim to be an expert on large felines,
but I have two servals, three chaus ¾ hybrids, and three domestic cats at
home.  The servals are neutered and declawed front and rear with the method
of reconnecting the tendons.  They have had no problems.  The chausies are
declawed front only in the standard manner done by most vets and before I
had a vet who specialized in exotics.  They have had no problems, but their
front feet upon close inspection do not look perfect whereas the servals’
feet look totally normal. All of our domestic cats have all their claws.
Not only are the chausies and servals easy to handle without scratching us
(they never deliberately scratched us, but prior to declawing frequently did
accidentally), but the balance of power between all the cats in the house
seems to be very well equalized and there are no serious fights.

Obviously this is a hot button issue, but it seems to me that if a several
or other wild feline is to be kept as a house pet it is reasonable to neuter
it.  I don’t see declawing a house pet that will never be allowed to roam
freely outdoors as any more “unnatural” than neutering, but I fully agree
than large felines can have serious problems if they are not declawed by an
expert.  Unfortunately most vets take the simple route and do not reconnect
the tendons which can lead to problems.  Doing it right can cost two to
three times as much, but the result warrants the expense.  My servals appear
to be very healthy and happy.

Obviously not everyone shares my opinions and I am keenly aware that many
people who contribute to this forum are vastly more qualified to discuss
large felines than I am. 

George Gruhn

  _____  

From: felines-l-bounces at catbox.com [mailto:felines-l-bounces at catbox.com] On
Behalf Of Sabira Woolley
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 11:00 PM
To: felines-l at catbox.com
Subject: Re: [FEL-L] De-claw debate

Hi Ben,

Thank you for your reply. 

Who is Mr. Gruhn?

I really think you can mandate what kind of surgery is allowed just as
easily as you can mandate whether ANY is allowed. In fact, it should be a
lot easier. If informed, more people will vote for something that gives them
kinder options, rather than for something that takes options away.

And for a big cat being kept domestically, the need for self-defense is (or
rather, should be, if the humans are doing their job right) greatly reduced.
And captive big cats are not allowed to defend themselves against humans or
escape, regardless of the condition of their claws. Under captive
circumstances, there are usually no options for an escaped big cat. Unless
one is saying they should NOT ever be captive at all, protection of the
humans is an important factor, and contributes to increased protection of
the cat.

I agree with you about domestic cats, though. They can find themselves in
vulnerable positions, with no claws, needing to defend themselves, a lot
more easily than a captive big cat. And there is rarely a genuinely good
reason to declaw them.

As far as a captive big cat needing to keep it's claws to defend itself in a
group of other cats, I am still not sure that is a good idea. My small cats
and kittens are better off because I clip their claws regularly. Without
that, they can scratch one another's eyes or make gashes that can become
infected, even unintentionally, or hurt my friendly little unaggressive dog.

It seems to me that there could be a big difference between the results of a
mighty cuff from the paw of a big cat, and the slashes that could occur if
claws are there and unsheathed. I have little cats. They love me and most of
them love each other. But they still can be too forceful due to fear, anger,
etc.

I have a strong preference myself for not declawing. I put a restriction
against it in contracts for selling domestic cats. But I do not raise or
interact with big cat species. 

I think this option (removing only the claw) should be addressed further,
and maybe pursued as a legal option, while the potentially crippling methods
should be outlawed. In some instances, declawing may mean the difference
between the big cats being kept alive or euthanized. 

Sabira

On Aug 10, 2006, at 9:02 PM, ben willis wrote:

There are alternative methods such as the one Mr Gruhn

mentioned, and may very well work. Unfortunately,

these methods cannot be mandated in law. As long as 

these inferior surgeries are available, there will be 

those who elect the inexpensive route. 

There are other issues other than the crippling

effects

of de-claw surgery. A cat being unable to escape or

defend itself because it's claws have been removed is

a cruelty only imposed by humans.

Ben Willis

--- Sabira Woolley <sabira at juaini.com> wrote:

I find it curious that the post I sent that

addressed this topic, and 

proposed an alternative claw removal method that

does not cripple the 

animal, was never responded to by anyone.

I have pasted it below, in case anyone is

interested.

Does no one here know about this, and any pros and

cons?

Sabira

On Aug 8, 2006, at 8:25 PM, Sabira Woolley wrote:

I am generally against declawing felines, unless

it is in a 

situation where it is deemed truly necessary. I do

not believe I 

can make a blanket rule for others about what

makes it necessary. I 

do believe we can all educate one another and help

better decisions 

to be made.

Here is a question - In the case of big cats, can

the claw removal 

procedure be done in which they remove the claw

without removing 

the bone?

An informative and respected cattery website that

lists 3 ways to 

do declawing, only approves of this method -

Claw Removal: Involves making a tiny incision in

each toe and 

removing the claw ONLY. Recovery is speedy and

although there is a 

small risk of the claw growing back, this is more

common in animals 

with very thick claws and is not frequently

observed in cats.

When this topic came up before on another list, I

spoke with my 

mother (a lifelong animal lover and raiser) about

it. She grew up 

in Europe. She insists claw removal without

removing the joint was 

routinely done there at that time, and in the US

it was either 

discontinued or not done due to laziness i.e.

unwillingness to put 

the time in and develop the skill. She said no one

she knew back 

then would have considered the removal of the

bone.

This conversation was about a year ago, and at the

time, I could 

find all 3 methods of removing claws by doing

internet searches - 

the removal of the first digit (with or without

lasers), the 

cutting of the tendon, and this method in which

only the claw 

itself is removed (which seems to me to be much

preferable). When I 

searched today, I found no mention of the "claw

removal" method, 

only scads of sites talking about the other two. I

am puzzled by this.

Sabira

On Aug 10, 2006, at 7:14 PM, ben willis wrote:

This controversial topic has been discussed on

this

list a number of times. Generally, it results in a

series of insults, name calling, and ultimately a

polarization views and opinions. This time there

have

been less participants, but many facts have been

brought forward and those facts overwhelmingly

support

a ban on the practice of declawing felines. More

importantly, those who have chosen to opine on the

subject have the credentials to support their

opinions

whether they advocate or oppose the practice.

Interestingly, the best evidence to support such a

ban

has come from those who openly agree with the the

practice of de-clawing. Almost every individual

admits

that

botched surgeries do occur, depending on which

veterinarian the owner elects to hire.

"My vet is experienced with wild felines and says

they

do fine declawed if the tendons are reconnected

rather than simply being cut as is done my most

vets

who declaw domestic cats. "

"we have raised exotics for 20 years and have had

successes and failures with regard to grow backs,

depending on the expertise of our Vets....... "

One member with more than fifty years experience

in

dealing with exotic felines and un-questionable

credentials has indicated that claw extractions

are

primarily done to protect costumes, props, and

injuries

to actors.

"I also know a lot of animal trainers that would

not

work their animals if they were not declawed. 

This is

to protect the actors that they must work with

here in

California." " The only reason that they are

declawed

is to protect costumes and props and people from

getting hurt."

One has even suggested that de-claw surguries may

even

promote attacks by causing a false sense of safety

in

people, therefore causing them to take less

precautions

when handling big cats.

"A more likely connection would that be owners of

declawed big cats, get closer, are more physical

with

the animal and tend to take chances one would not

take

with a fully armed cat. Thus leading to increase

incident of injury."

"Inversely it is likely that people with clawed

cats

are more cautious and engage in less risky

behavior.

The claws are like a barrier that keeps you away

from

the things that can really hurt you."

In any case, these comments were not taken out of

context. While I may not completely agree with

them

all, they do little to convince anyone that claw

extractions are necessary to protect humans or

animals. In fact they do just the opposite.

Ben Willis

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam

protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

_______________________________________________

Felines-L mailing list

Felines-L at catbox.com

http://www.breuckman.com/mailman/listinfo/felines-l

_______________________________________________

Felines-L mailing list

Felines-L at catbox.com

http://www.breuckman.com/mailman/listinfo/felines-l

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 

http://mail.yahoo.com 

_______________________________________________

Felines-L mailing list

Felines-L at catbox.com

http://www.breuckman.com/mailman/listinfo/felines-l

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.breuckman.com/pipermail/felines-l/attachments/20060811/eca0c24b/attachment.html