[FEL-L] De-claw debate

Fri Aug 11 00:00:11 CDT 2006

Hi Ben,
Thank you for your reply.

Who is Mr. Gruhn?

I really think you can mandate what kind of surgery is allowed just  
as easily as you can mandate whether ANY is allowed. In fact, it  
should be a lot easier.  If informed, more people will vote for  
something that gives them kinder options, rather than for something  
that takes options away.

And for a big cat being kept domestically, the need for self-defense  
is (or rather, should be, if the humans are doing their job right)  
greatly reduced. And captive big cats are not allowed to defend  
themselves against humans or escape, regardless of the condition of  
their claws. Under captive circumstances, there are usually no  
options for an escaped big cat. Unless one is saying they should NOT  
ever be captive at all, protection of the humans is an important  
factor, and contributes to increased protection of the cat.

I agree with you about domestic cats, though. They can find  
themselves in vulnerable positions, with no claws, needing to defend  
themselves, a lot more easily than a captive big cat. And there is  
rarely a genuinely good reason to declaw them.

As far as a captive big cat needing to keep it's claws to defend  
itself in a group of other cats, I am still not sure that is a good  
idea. My small cats and kittens are better off because I clip their  
claws regularly. Without that, they can scratch one another's eyes or  
make gashes that can become infected, even unintentionally, or hurt  
my friendly little unaggressive dog.

It seems to me that there could be a big difference between the  
results of a mighty cuff from the paw of a big cat, and the slashes  
that could occur if claws are there and unsheathed. I have little  
cats. They love me and most of them love each other. But they still  
can be too forceful due to fear, anger, etc.

I have a strong preference myself for not declawing. I put a  
restriction against it in contracts for selling domestic cats. But I  
do not raise or interact with big cat species.

I think this option (removing only the claw) should be addressed  
further, and maybe pursued as a legal option, while the potentially  
crippling methods should be outlawed. In some instances, declawing  
may mean the difference between the big cats being kept alive or  
euthanized.

Sabira

On Aug 10, 2006, at 9:02 PM, ben willis wrote:

> There are alternative methods such as the one Mr Gruhn
> mentioned, and may very well work. Unfortunately,
> these methods cannot be mandated in law. As long as
> these inferior surgeries are available, there will be
> those who elect the inexpensive route.
> There are other issues other than the crippling
> effects
> of de-claw surgery. A cat being unable to escape or
> defend itself because it's claws have been removed is
> a cruelty only imposed by humans.
>
> Ben Willis
>
> --- Sabira Woolley <sabira at juaini.com> wrote:
>
>> I find it curious that the post I sent that
>> addressed this topic, and
>> proposed an alternative claw removal method that
>> does not cripple the
>> animal, was never responded to by anyone.
>>
>> I have pasted it below, in case anyone is
>> interested.
>>
>> Does no one here know about this, and any pros and
>> cons?
>>
>> Sabira
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2006, at 8:25 PM, Sabira Woolley wrote:
>>> I am generally against declawing felines, unless
>> it is in a
>>> situation where it is deemed truly necessary. I do
>> not believe I
>>> can make a blanket rule for others about what
>> makes it necessary. I
>>> do believe we can all educate one another and help
>> better decisions
>>> to be made.
>>>
>>> Here is a question - In the case of big cats, can
>> the claw removal
>>> procedure be done in which they remove the claw
>> without removing
>>> the bone?
>>>
>>> An informative and respected cattery website that
>> lists 3 ways to
>>> do declawing, only approves of this method -
>>>
>>> Claw Removal:  Involves making a tiny incision in
>> each toe and
>>> removing the claw ONLY.  Recovery is speedy and
>> although there is a
>>> small risk of the claw growing back, this is more
>> common in animals
>>> with very thick claws and is not frequently
>> observed in cats.
>>>
>>> When this topic came up before on another list, I
>> spoke with my
>>> mother (a lifelong animal lover and raiser) about
>> it. She grew up
>>> in Europe. She insists claw removal without
>> removing the joint was
>>> routinely done there at that time, and in the US
>> it was either
>>> discontinued or not done due to laziness i.e.
>> unwillingness to put
>>> the time in and develop the skill. She said no one
>> she knew back
>>> then would have considered the removal of the
>> bone.
>>>
>>> This conversation was about a year ago, and at the
>> time, I could
>>> find all 3 methods of removing claws by doing
>> internet searches -
>>> the removal of the first digit (with or without
>> lasers), the
>>> cutting of the tendon, and this method in which
>> only the claw
>>> itself is removed (which seems to me to be much
>> preferable). When I
>>> searched today, I found no mention of the "claw
>> removal" method,
>>> only scads of sites talking about the other two. I
>> am puzzled by this.
>>>
>>> Sabira
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2006, at 7:14 PM, ben willis wrote:
>>>
>>> This controversial topic has been discussed on
>> this
>>> list a number of times. Generally, it results in a
>>> series of insults, name calling, and ultimately a
>>> polarization views and opinions. This time there
>> have
>>> been less participants, but many facts have been
>>> brought forward and those facts overwhelmingly
>> support
>>>
>>> a ban on the practice of declawing felines. More
>>> importantly, those who have chosen to opine on the
>>> subject have the credentials to support their
>> opinions
>>> whether they advocate or oppose the practice.
>>> Interestingly, the best evidence to support such a
>> ban
>>> has come from those who openly agree with the the
>>> practice of de-clawing. Almost every individual
>> admits
>>> that
>>> botched surgeries do occur, depending on which
>>> veterinarian the owner elects to hire.
>>>
>>> "My vet is experienced with wild felines and says
>> they
>>> do fine declawed if the tendons are reconnected
>>> rather than simply being cut as is done my most
>> vets
>>> who declaw domestic cats. "
>>>
>>> "we have raised exotics for 20 years and have had
>>> successes and failures with regard to grow backs,
>>> depending on the expertise of our Vets....... "
>>>
>>> One member with more than fifty years experience
>> in
>>> dealing with exotic felines and un-questionable
>>> credentials has indicated that claw extractions
>> are
>>> primarily done to protect costumes, props, and
>>> injuries
>>> to actors.
>>>
>>> "I also know a lot of animal trainers that would
>> not
>>> work their animals if they were not declawed.
>> This is
>>> to protect the actors that they must work with
>> here in
>>> California." " The only reason that they are
>> declawed
>>> is to protect costumes and props and people from
>>> getting hurt."
>>>
>>> One has even suggested that de-claw surguries may
>> even
>>> promote attacks by causing a false sense of safety
>> in
>>> people, therefore causing them to take less
>>> precautions
>>> when handling big cats.
>>>
>>> "A more likely connection would that be owners of
>>> declawed big cats, get closer, are more physical
>> with
>>> the animal and tend to take chances one would not
>> take
>>> with a fully armed cat.  Thus leading to increase
>>> incident of injury."
>>> "Inversely it is likely that people with clawed
>> cats
>>> are more cautious and engage in less risky
>> behavior.
>>> The claws are like a barrier that keeps you away
>> from
>>> the things that can really hurt you."
>>>
>>> In any case, these comments were not taken out of
>>> context. While I may not completely agree with
>> them
>>> all, they do little to convince anyone that claw
>>> extractions are necessary to protect humans or
>>> animals. In fact they do just the opposite.
>>>
>>> Ben Willis
>>>
>>>
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